6: Portrait interview with Roberto Payer, ‘the best hotelier in the world’.

Transcript

Hotel subject - Episode 6

Interview with Roberto Payer (Luxury Hotel & Travel Consultant)
Host: Roel van Gils

[00:00] Introduction

Roel van Gils:
Lightspeed Restaurant, the leading platform for top hospitality entrepreneurs worldwide.

Welcome to Hotelvak, the podcast - A podcast about entrepreneurship in the hospitality sector.

Today I am for this podcast recording on the road. I am sitting in the RAI in Amsterdam and across from me sits, yes ... I think I can put it this way: a living legend from the international hotel industry - Roberto Payer.

In the late 1960s, he came to Amsterdam as a young Italian immigrant with one dream: to become the boss of a major hotel. More than half a century later, we can safely say that dream has come true. He was at the helm of the Hilton Amsterdam, opened the Waldorf Astoria on the Herengracht and grew into one of the most influential hoteliers in the world.

But today it is not about the numbers, not about the rooms or the stars - but about the man behind the name. About what hospitality really means, what shaped him and how his view on style, respect and service has permanently changed the profession.

He is also president-commissioner of the Dutch art fair, which is why we are at the RAI today. Online, he describes himself as luxury hotel and travel consultant. And anno 2025, something else is new: a biography about him has been published, written by Ronald Okhuizen: Welcome, ‘How it should be done according to Roberto Payer, the best hotelier in the world’ - a book full of stories, wisdom and life lessons.

Exactly what we will hopefully discover in this episode.

Roberto, can you live with this intro?

Roberto Payer:
Yes, that sounds pretty good.

Roel van Gils:
Is there anything else that needs to be added?

Roberto Payer:
No, as a start, it's okay.

[01:46] About leaving Venice and coming to the Netherlands

Roel van Gils:
You were born close to Venice - a beautiful setting. I wondered: you never just leave there, do you? Why did you leave for the cold, chilly Netherlands in the 1960s?

Roberto Payer:
You are right: I lived three quarters of an hour from the sea and three quarters of an hour from a ski resort. But if you have a dream, really a dream, you have to follow it. I was eight years old when I first felt I wanted to work in a hotel. I was in a hotel with my parents and I loved it.

Only: in Italy, most hotels are family-run businesses. And I didn't want to work for a family - then I might as well have stayed with my own family. I wanted to work for an international hotel company. That realisation came later, but the basis was already there when I was little.

Roel van Gils:
Do you remember what the trigger was, there as a boy?

Roberto Payer:
Yes. I was standing in the garden of a beautiful hotel, an imposing building. I saw all these people working... and one man who seemed to direct everything. The orchestrator of it all. That image - that feeling - has never left me.

[03:46] From dream to struggle: father, hotel school and blue-collar work

Roel van Gils:
Then you get older, you want to go to hotel school... but that didn't come naturally, I understood?

Roberto Payer:
No. My father did not want me to work in a hotel. He wanted me to come and work with him, in his textile company. He didn't want to pay for hotel school. So I worked by myself to pay for it: picking grapes, cutting hoods... labourer's work. To get my tuition together.

Roel van Gils:
And yet you left Italy. Why exactly did it become the Netherlands?

Roberto Payer:
My father had a friend called Coppola who lived in the Netherlands. He told me the Hilton was here. And then... yes, that's when I went.

I grabbed my passport - my father did not want me to go, but in those days the EU did not exist. With the identity pass you could still go to the Netherlands through the Treaty of Rome. That made the step easier.

[05:46] Arriving in the Netherlands

Roel van Gils:
How was that practically done? By train? By bus?

Roberto Payer:
By plane. I arrived at Schiphol Airport, went to see my family friend - that first step was not so difficult. Everything after that was.

You had to arrange your residence permit, you had to get yourself presented, you didn't speak the language... everything was new.

But if you believe in your dream, then it is not so difficult.

[07:12] On parents, expectations and choices

Roel van Gils:
So your father wanted you to stay. How difficult was that conflict?

Roberto Payer:
Parents want the best for their child, but they don't always think about what the child wants themselves. This is a problem that is common. I understand it - but I had to follow my own path.

Not every child has the strength to stand up to their parents. I had to.

Roel van Gils:
Your mother was behind you though?

Roberto Payer:
Yes. She sometimes sent me money. I had an incredibly hard time those first years: I lived on 30 or 40 guilders a month. But I never went back. Not for a second.

[09:01] Grounding in the Netherlands and learning the language

Roel van Gils:
What made you stay despite everything being so difficult?

Roberto Payer:
Because I felt I could grow. You feel respect, you see opportunities. And as for language: for the first two years, I didn't do much with it. Until I was at a Shakespeare play, at the Stadsschouwburg. Eric Schneider was playing Hamlet in Dutch.

I sat in the third row and thought: If someone can speak Dutch so beautifully, I want to learn this language.
Then I took lessons - once a week - with an Italian teacher on P.C. Hooftstraat.

And I was bold enough to just speak Dutch, even if it was bad. You have to dare to do that.

[11:13] Making friends in the Netherlands

Roel van Gils:
The Dutch can be a bit stiff. Was it difficult to make friends?

Roberto Payer:
Not at all. I never had trouble with friends here. My oldest friend - she just died - I knew since then. I felt welcome here.

[12:22] When did you know, “I belong here”?

Roel van Gils:
When did the realisation come: this is my place, this is my life?

Roberto Payer:
I never thought about it. I felt it. I was like a fish in the water. Of course there were difficulties - but everyone has them.

[13:00] First job at the Hilton: reality

Roel van Gils:
And then you get to the Hilton. How was that?

Roberto Payer:
I had to enter through the staff entrance - that felt like a blow. You're 19 and you want to go through the main entrance, but you weren't allowed to. Then I had to take tests, exams, and eventually I started carrying boards.

Not my dream, no. But I decided to become the best at what I was given.

And they saw that.

[14:41] Daring to speak - but in the right way

Roel van Gils:
So you had the guts to suggest improvements at a young age?

Roberto Payer:
Yes, but you have to right bring. Don't be bold. First prove that you can do something. Then your criticism will be seen as a contribution, not arrogance.

And I have done that all my life.

[16:07] Impulsiveness, long toes, criticism and growth

Roel van Gils:
Are you impulsive?

Roberto Payer:
Far too impulsive. And I have long toes. If you step on those, be careful.

But as you get older, you learn: criticism is not an attack. It's someone wanting to help you. So you have to think: how nice of him to say so.
I still manage to do that - although sometimes I have to count to ten.

[17:12] On regrets, choices and his father's deathbed

Roel van Gils:
You just said: if I were to die tomorrow, I have no regrets. But your father died at some point. That is emotional for any child. Yet things settled down between you on the deathbed?

Roberto Payer:
Things had actually worked out before. My father had diabetes and had to have his leg amputated. I went back to help him take his first steps with that new leg. We were close again.

Later, he had to go to hospital for a minor operation, and that went wrong. But just before that, he said to me: I am proud of you. He understood that I had achieved what I wanted.

In life, you have to accept that others think differently from you. Parents want the best for you, but that is not always the same as what you want.

Roel van Gils:
But you hadn't been in touch for five years, right?

Roberto Payer:
Yes, five years.

Roel van Gils:
What was the moment you decided to reconnect anyway?

Roberto Payer:
When I heard he had diabetes. I just went. Point.

[19:10] On returning, illness and responsibility

Roberto Payer:
I went to him and said: dad, I'm here for you. I had visited him before that when he had health problems. They thought he was suffering from dementia, but I found out that he was at the onset of gangrene. They found that out then.

Later, when he got a new prosthesis, I went back to help him. He is my father. I adore him.

Roel van Gils:
But why five years of no contact?

Roberto Payer:
Because I couldn't accept that he didn't see what I wanted to do. We were both stubborn. That runs in the family, yes.

[20:27] Italian hospitality vs Dutch hospitality

Roel van Gils:
Which brings me to hospitality. Italian hospitality is different from Dutch hospitality. How do you manage to be so successful here?

Roberto Payer:
Everyone likes to be received nicely. You don't have to have money to be hospitable. You can give someone a plate of spaghetti on a bare table, or on a beautifully set table with a rug, cutlery, flowers and a candle. That is a totally different experience.

Hospitality is about attention, not luxury.

[22:02] Motivating employees in hospitality

Roel van Gils:
How have you taught your staff to see hospitality that way?

Roberto Payer:
By showing them. By giving them a simple exercise: set the table perfectly straight, with flowers exactly in line. Then have them shift the flowers. With eyes closed, let them experience the difference. That's how you learn atmosphere.

But in the end, it's not just about technique. It's about what you feel inside, and bringing that out.

[23:08] Psychology and sociology in the hotel industry

Roel van Gils:
As a hotelier, shouldn't you actually be a psychologist or sociologist as well?

Roberto Payer:
You have to learn it. It is not psychological training. It's about learning what people want. That you know that sometimes an Arab woman may not accept anything from your hand. Or that some guests want fruit, others chocolate. You have to learn to think internationally.

[23:46] The opening of the Waldorf Astoria

Roel van Gils:
At some point, a dream came true: you got to open the Waldorf Astoria. The next step in your career?

Roberto Payer:
For me, that was the finale. Not because I wanted to make a career - I don't care about that - but because I love the product. I had the chance to position the best hotel brand in the world.

Everyone has beautiful rooms. Blue, green, red... all beautiful. But it's not about the room. It's about how a person feels.

So I created a complete script: from the moment someone arrives at the airport to the moment they leave the hotel again.

[25:02] Hospitality begins at the airport

Roel van Gils:
Give an example. What happens at the airport?

Roberto Payer:
When the guest arrives, there is a driver there who knows the name. But you never say: how was your trip? Maybe someone spent three quarters of an hour in a traffic jam or waiting for luggage. You don't start about that.

And then opening the door: everyone grabs the door on the right and pulls it open. But that's wrong. You first walk to the left, put your arm above the doorway so the guest doesn't bump his head, then you help the guest out, and only then do you walk back to close the door.

Those details someone remembers. Not the colour of the walls.

[26:39] The biggest misconception in the hotel industry

Roel van Gils:
Is that the biggest misconception in the hotel industry? That it's all about nice rooms and luxury showers?

Roberto Payer:
Yes. Those things are the basics. They are necessary for your reputation. But after that, everything is about people. About your team, about the experience you create.

[27:33] Miss the work itself?

Roel van Gils:
Do you sometimes miss being on the shop floor yourself? Holding the door open, interacting with guests?

Roberto Payer:
No. It's over for me. But in my master classes, that all comes back, and I like that.

[28:12] Master classes: what does he teach people?

Roel van Gils:
What are the most frequently asked questions?

Roberto Payer:
At the end of my master class, participants are given assignments to think of ways to improve their environment. And I teach them that you can't give a cleaner a cleaner mentions, but a office attendant. That gives value. They do much more than cleaning.

Roel van Gils:
Are they eye-openers?

Roberto Payer:
I hope so.

[29:26] Discussions during master classes

Roel van Gils:
Do you ever have discussions during master classes?

Roberto Payer:
Yes, definitely. But no one has ever said that what I say doesn't work.

I explain that you have to have a vision, implement it, apply it, revisit it and sometimes adjust it. Nothing is ever finished. You have to keep testing.

[30:34] Manager or hotelier?

Roel van Gils:
Are you a better manager or a better hotelier?

Roberto Payer:
For me, it's the same thing. If you have a vision, you have to be able to communicate it. That's the hardest thing when you have a lot of employees.

[30:51] How do you communicate your vision? Three tips

Roel van Gils:
Can you give two or three concrete tips to listeners - managers, hotel directors, family businesses?

Roberto Payer:
I use a circular scheme. It starts with vision. Then execution. Then introduction. Then analysis. Then adaptation. And again the question: does this still fit my vision? You keep going around. Nothing is static.

[32:14] Getting everyone along: the 30-person canteen table

Roel van Gils:
Another example?

Roberto Payer:
Yes. In the staff room - what I call the restaurant, not the canteen - I had a huge table made, for 30 people. No separate corners for managers or room service. Everyone sits together.

Then suddenly a chambermaid talks to someone from technical services, or the receptionist. That's how you break down walls.

[33:41] Openness among colleagues

Roberto Payer:
You have to create openness. Does an employee dare say he feels bad because he has problems at home? In 99 per cent of cases, people don't dare.

But if you remove the distance, that does happen.

[34:59] What about yourself?

Roel van Gils:
And you? Do you share when you sit at that table?

Roberto Payer:
Yes. If I was having a bad day, I would say so. Or to my assistant: Keep people away from me today, I'm not going well.
But I don't tell the details because then you draw others into your problems. That is not correct.

[35:00] On alcohol consumption, minibars and trends

Roel van Gils:
Our partner Lightspeed conducts research on hospitality trends. One of the results: more than half of guests order alcohol with their food. Are you experiencing the same in the hotel industry? And are minibars still being used?

Roberto Payer:
Non-alcoholic drinking is normal these days. Ten years ago it was inconvenient, now it is a lifestyle. Restaurants should be prepared: good non-alcoholic wines and beers.

The minibar? That is disappearing. It is too expensive for hotels to maintain and guests get their drinks outside the hotel these days. I would abolish it.

[37:35] The autobiography: why a book was published about him

Roel van Gils:
And then suddenly there was a biography about you. How did that feel?

Roberto Payer:
It was not my idea. Ronald Okhuizen collected everything: newspapers, radio, TV, interviews, archive material. Three, four boxes full. He wanted to write it. I just laughed and thought: who would want to read a book about me?

Roel van Gils:
But you said earlier that you also have an ego. Didn't that stroke you then?

Roberto Payer:
No. Not at all. I thought it was mostly funny that someone wanted to write it.

[38:53] The message to young people

Roel van Gils:
What do you want people to learn from your book?

Roberto Payer:
That everyone in this country has opportunities - including young people from different backgrounds. But you have to perform. Complain less. And above all: learn Dutch. That's number one. That's how you integrate. That's how you understand the country. And then you can achieve anything.

[39:49] It's not just about hotel business

Roberto Payer:
The book is not just about hotels. Hotelling is only a small part of my life. It's about vision, about accepting that sometimes you don't achieve what you want, and then working even harder. That applies to any profession.

[40:02] Young people and the hotel business

Roel van Gils:
How do you look at young people in the Netherlands now?

Roberto Payer:
I have hired 40,000 to 50,000 people in my life. If you go to a hotel school, everyone says: I get on well with people and I speak languages. But no one tells them who they themselves are or what they really want.

They all say they want to work in marketing or HR. But if you ask: what will you do then? Then they can't answer. They have a dream in their heads, shaped by school, but they don't know the application.

[41:36] Choosing hotel school: practical differences

Roberto Payer:
That's why I liked Leeuwarden so much - more practical. The Hague is corporate. Maastricht is more food & beverage. It's just what suits you. But you have to know what your role will be, not just what your dream is.

[42:08] His own career path and the job in sales

Roel van Gils:
But you knew that when you were 19.

Roberto Payer:
I also had to learn. I once wanted to do sales and marketing. When I wanted a job, the Italian director said: you don't speak good Dutch, you can't get that job. I said: how many sales people are there in the Netherlands? Sixty? Then I go to IBM now. Sixty people come to speak good Dutch, and one Italian with bad Dutch. Who do they remember? That one Italian.

That's how I got that job.

[43:27] Is there another endpoint waiting for him?

Roel van Gils:
When I read an autobiography, I think: life is over. But with you, I don't have that. What is the end point yet? Will there be a new book?

Roberto Payer:
I only do fun things anymore. I love getting older. Many people find it difficult, but not me. You can't stop it anyway. I've had a fantastic life. No regrets. Nothing I would do again.

[44:21] A gaffe then?

Roel van Gils:
Do you have something you'd like to forget? A big blunder?

Roberto Payer:
I have no big blunders. Only choices. I worked at the Lido once, when I was 24. I made a lot of money, but after three months I knew: this is not my job. Was it a mistake? Maybe. But I learnt from it that money and power are not my motivation. Performing what you think - that's important.

[45:42] The art fair PAN Amsterdam

Roel van Gils:
You are now president-commissioner of the art fair in Amsterdam. Tell.

Roberto Payer:
Eight years ago, they asked me. The newspapers thought it was ridiculous that a hotelier was interfering with art. But they didn't understand that PAN is an event - hospitality. I don't interfere with the art itself. There are specialists for that. My job is to make sure the whole event is right.

It is now Europe's largest national art fair. 45,000 visitors. And it gets more beautiful every year.

Roel van Gils:
Otherwise, they would have already sent you away.

Roberto Payer:
That is also what I am assuming.

[47:12] What if you did get sent away?

Roel van Gils:
How would you handle it if you did get sent away?

Roberto Payer:
It has happened to me once that someone said: I don't want you to come. That affects me, yes. I am sensitive. You wonder: why? If the reason is good, I listen. But if someone says: I just don't like it, then I wait for the right moment. I give it back. Not revenge - but you get it back.

[49:06] What would you say to the eight-year-old boy?

Roel van Gils:
Looking back on your life: what would you say to eight-year-old Roberto?

Roberto Payer:
Just do what you did, dear boy. It will be all right.

[49:42] Has he told you everything?

Roel van Gils:
Have you told everything you wanted?

Roberto Payer:
I think so. But you haven't seen my sensitive side yet.

Roel van Gils:
So what should I have asked?

Roberto Payer:
For example: how do I deal with mistakes? If I do something wrong that nobody sees but I do... I struggle with that. I don't want to make mistakes. I am too demanding on myself.

[50:36] On perfectionism

Roel van Gils:
Are you being too hard on yourself?

Roberto Payer:
Sure. And you should be. It bothers me, always. I want to be the best. Even now. If I am president of the Italian Chamber of Commerce, it has to be the best. Otherwise I have to leave. Everything can always be better.

[51:43] A final life lesson

Roel van Gils:
I think we got to know you as a bon vivant with vision, but also as someone who is strict with himself.

Roberto Payer:
That's right. Yesterday's best is not good enough. There is always room for improvement.

[51:57] Closure

Roel van Gils:
Thank you for your hospitality here at RAI. Thank you for this conversation. And best of luck with the exhibition days.

Roberto Payer:
Thank you - it was a pleasure.