Host: Jerry Helmers
Guests: René J.M. Schillings, TOP Hoteliers Hospitality Executive Search
[00:00] Introduction to the episode
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Jerry Helmers: Lightspeed Restaurant, the leading platform for the world’s top hospitality entrepreneurs. Thank you for listening to Hotelvak, the podcast. Produced by Louwers Mediagroep in Weert. This episode is part of a series in which we speak to industry experts and examine a topical hotel dilemma. At any rate, it’s a dilemma or issue that every hotel owner, general manager or entrepreneur in the sector will recognise. And today, I’m joined in the studio by none other than René J.M. Schillings from TOP Hoteliers, based in Hong Kong. Executive Search – am I saying that right, René?
René J.M. Schillings: That’s right. Schillings with an S.
Jerry Helmers: ‘Schillings’ is indeed spelled with an S. Did I say that without an S?
René J.M. Schillings: That’s all right.
Jerry Helmers: That’s very sloppy. It’s obviously very bad form for me to be a terrible host in the hospitality industry if I don’t pronounce your name quite correctly.
René J.M. Schillings: It is a bit fiddly. You have to dot the i’s and cross the t’s.
[00:58] Who might find this episode interesting
Jerry Helmers: Well, René, before we get to know you better, the first thing I’d like to ask you is: who in particular should keep listening, and why should people keep listening?
René J.M. Schillings: Well, Jerry, I think this podcast might be of interest to entrepreneurs in the Netherlands, as well as HR managers. The challenge facing the hospitality sector in recruiting and retaining good staff is certainly a reality. We see this in China, but in fact we’re already seeing it all over the world. We’re dealing with this issue across the globe.
Jerry Helmers: Yes, at the end of this podcast, are you going to share some useful tips for anyone working in HR…
René J.M. Schillings: Absolutely. I could, of course, write a whole book on the subject by now, but I do have a few tips in mind that I’ve noticed. These certainly apply to the Netherlands, though they’re also seen worldwide. And this is simply the new era that everyone has to be part of, including in the Netherlands.
[01:50] The career of René J.M. Schillings
Jerry Helmers: Exactly. So, we’d like to say to our listeners – and especially to everyone in the hotel sector – please do stay tuned. Could you tell us a bit more about yourself? Who are you? Where are you from? Could you tell our listeners all that in just under a minute?
René J.M. Schillings: Certainly. I’m quite well known in China as ‘René from China’. I was actually born in the Netherlands, though. I’m Dutch, too. I trained at the Hotel Management School whilst working in the hotel industry. The Shangri-La hotel chain. I’ve worked all over the world, really. Africa, the Middle East, Europe. Several times in Asia. And I once set up the very first executive search firm for hotel managers in China.
[02:27] What Executive Search involves
Jerry Helmers: Could you explain what Executive Search is? I can almost guess, but just to be clear.
René J.M. Schillings: Well, you see, we essentially work on behalf of our clients. In my case, these are mainly large hotel chains. They require executive-level managers. So, department heads, general managers and those at an even higher level. They generally tell me what they need or would like to have. And we then know who we can approach for that. That’s different from headhunting. My company doesn’t have a website with job vacancies either. It’s really a networking business where you have to know everyone. And if this hotel says, ‘We’re looking for someone like this’, then I know exactly who to approach for the role.
[03:09] Twenty years’ experience in China
Jerry Helmers: How long have you been doing this job?
René J.M. Schillings: More than twenty years. So I started at the beginning of this century. Back then, China was still… Back then, China had actually only just begun to develop. And I think anyone who not only listens to the radio but also watches TV will be well aware that China has developed enormously over the last twenty years.
Jerry Helmers: Yes, things moved incredibly quickly there.
René J.M. Schillings: Yes, and that’s completely different from the situation in the Netherlands. But there are parallels. And so I can see that those parallels – which we originally thought were really an HR problem specific to China itself – have, as it turns out, been observed across the whole of Asia. Even though those countries have a much larger population than we do here.
[03:46] The challenge in the labour market
Jerry Helmers: But what exactly is the problem in China?
René J.M. Schillings: Well, you see, because of the rapid developments, it’s also true that there are, of course, plenty of jobs. So when it comes to recruiting large numbers of people for a major hospitality and tourism industry, your initial thought is naturally: yes, you reckon there are plenty of people there, so it won’t be difficult to find good staff. But look, labour for factories – that’s a different matter altogether.
Jerry Helmers: You’ll find one.
René J.M. Schillings: Yes, but people who are creative, who want to work in the service sector, who also want to build a career, who want to move on from school or their first job into management or a leadership role… If that happens too quickly, then a great many people will drop out. And that’s where we see quite a few snags.
[04:33] Hotel management schools and people leaving the hospitality sector
Jerry Helmers: Are the courses in China any good? Are there any good hotel management schools? I think we have quite a good reputation in the Netherlands. Definitely, definitely. But is that also the case in China?
René J.M. Schillings: Well, they’re here now – the hotel management schools in China. These have emerged both as local initiatives and through collaboration with, for example, Dutch, Swiss or American hotel management schools. Of course, all these schools have also arisen from the realisation that: yes, we do need them after all. Our own trained staff. But what has happened there is that students were also recruited specifically to study hospitality or to learn the trade. It’s a wonderful profession. But ultimately… Well, unfortunately, I have to conclude that out of every hundred graduates, more than ninety are no longer working in the hospitality sector within five years. That’s a massive figure, and it’s a persistent problem. You can keep training people, but there’s no pipeline of new talent.
[05:33] Hospitality and cultural differences
Jerry Helmers: We’ll no doubt be talking about that later as well. Are the Chinese, by nature – compared to the Netherlands – hospitable and open? Do they like to pamper their guests?
René J.M. Schillings: Look, what is a Chinese person?
Jerry Helmers: Yes, that’s right. With a billion Chinese people, there are bound to be differences amongst them.
René J.M. Schillings: Certainly. Look, we’re talking primarily about the People’s Republic of China. And that’s a very different country from, say, Hong Kong, Macau or Taiwan. There are Chinese people there too, but the mindset is different. I can say that, in principle, Chinese people like to work hard. That’s why there are so many hospitality entrepreneurs in the Netherlands too. Working hard and putting in long hours is no problem at all. And of course, making a living from it – that’s all fine. When it comes to a service-oriented approach, you see that much more in South-East Asia, for example. Thailand, for instance, is much better known for its smiles. And Japan, for example, is renowned for its politeness. But that’s all just on the surface.
[06:31] Hospitality as a profession and a business
Jerry Helmers: But is it also culturally determined, then?
René J.M. Schillings: Certainly, that’s culturally determined. And from a Western perspective – whether you’re a manager or simply a visitor, tourist or traveller – you shouldn’t always confuse that with the idea that, well, those people are cut out for hospitality. You see, what it really comes down to is that hospitality is a business too. The business has to be run; you have to manage teams, keep an eye on your costs, keep an eye on your profits – everything that goes with it. You do need a knack for that, so you do have to enjoy doing it, of course. Well, I do see that there’s also… And it doesn’t matter which country you come from, what colour you are or where you were born. You either have it or you don’t; you enjoy it, and that’s why people go into hospitality. But how long people stay in the industry is more a matter of living conditions, the economy and personal circumstances. So we see that both here in the Netherlands and there: unfortunately, there are still too many people who don’t complete that career path, ultimately ending up in the same position as the manager…
[07:33] Recruitment criteria
Jerry Helmers: But as a manager, you’ll have to deal with that or work on it. But when you’re recruiting – because you really want to use the word ‘recruiting’ – what criteria do you base your recruitment on?
René J.M. Schillings: Look, it’s obviously a cliché in recruitment to say, ‘yes, the right person, the right place’. I do believe in that, though. So what are we actually looking for? Look, people do eventually send in a CV, but I don’t actually check the technical details of it. If someone is a head chef or the manager of a hotel and I can see where they’ve worked, then I do take those technical details at face value. It really is about where someone has worked before. That way, they can adapt quickly to the current location. And the second thing is: look at the person. Because that hotelier, that chef too – whatever their level – is also a person with a private life. Sometimes with a family, sometimes with preferences for certain things… Look, one person loves the tropics and nice weather, whilst another might say, ‘Well, I actually quite like a bit of snow somewhere.’ We’re not a travel agency in that sense. But you do have to consider: if someone has always worked in warm countries, how happy are they going to be if they end up working somewhere where it’s minus twenty in winter?
[08:51] Adaptability and international experience
Jerry Helmers: But when you say ‘adapting to the situation’, that’s sort of the first criterion you look at. What do you mean by that? Surely everyone has to be flexible? How do you see that working for a general manager?
René J.M. Schillings: If you’re already a general manager, you’ve probably held a few other jobs. We also tend to look for experts who’ve been living abroad for some time – preferably already in the country where the job is based. Everyone has a first time. It’s your first time as a director, your first time as a father, your first time… Well, whatever. I wasn’t born in China; it was my first time in China too. But we still, well, I’d say in 99 per cent of cases, we don’t recruit first-timers to China. We’d much rather look at people who are already in China or have been there before.
Jerry Helmers: Because you need to know the local customs there.
René J.M. Schillings: Yes, and that’s not just cultural knowledge, but also an understanding of how the local economy works there, and what the local people’s mindset is. And I think every European understands that London and Rome are completely different cities in terms of living and working there. But you’ve got a Hilton there and there too. Or a Rosewood or a Ritz-Carlton. Well, it’s just the same in China, and it’s just the same in Japan.
Jerry Helmers: So Shanghai is different from Beijing.
René J.M. Schillings: Absolutely. Shanghai is really more of a fast-paced business city, whilst Beijing is the centre of government. Things move at a slightly slower pace there. And then there’s also southern China. That’s a completely different world.
[10:23] Working in Asia versus the Netherlands
Jerry Helmers: When you talk about hospitality and the role of a general manager, what is the main difference between how things are done in China and how they are done in the Netherlands?
René J.M. Schillings: Well, let me put it this way. People sometimes think, ‘I’d quite like to work in Asia too; it all seems rather lovely.’ But I can tell you that they work three times as hard as they do in the Netherlands. I can say that for certain.
Jerry Helmers: So the difference is – it just depends on how you look at it – whether people in China work three times as hard or people in the Netherlands work three times as slowly.
René J.M. Schillings: Absolutely. Look, if the local staff in China are already working hard, then even more is expected of a manager. Because everyone only goes home when you do, so you’re the one who stays the longest.
Jerry Helmers: But is it a case of working hard, or working smart?
René J.M. Schillings: Of course, you do need to work smart. Otherwise, you won’t be adding value as an expatriate, if we’re talking about that. Because, naturally, you need to take a long-term view: what do I want to change here? It’s true, and this has been the case for a long time, that people often have the idea that we’re going there as experts to teach the locals how things should be done. That’s no longer the case. Certain countries are still in a development phase. I’d say, perhaps Bangladesh, India, Cambodia – those are still very much in a development phase. China moved beyond that a long time ago. Japan certainly has. It’s been forty years since they moved beyond that. You do need to know what value you’re bringing. And there are times when you have to say: ‘That’s how things are here, and we’ll leave them that way.’.
[12:01] How candidates are assessed
Jerry Helmers: But how do you work that out when you’re talking to a candidate? What do you look out for? You say, ‘I want to find out if they’re flexible.’ But what questions do you actually ask?
René J.M. Schillings: Yes, let me put it this way: I’m not a police inspector either, but I’d say that might be a detective. You might sometimes ask open-ended questions to see what sort of answer you get. And then you already have a bit of an idea – well, that person can handle it. Or that person might well hit a brick wall there. But it’s also true that I do sometimes take a look. You see, people who’ve worked in South-East Asia for a very long time, for example, will find it difficult in North Asia – Japan and Korea, for instance. Because in South-East Asia, everything’s a bit more flexible.
Jerry Helmers: But you realise that, or you see that, because you’ve lived there for a very long time and have a lot of experience.
René J.M. Schillings: Yes, I’ve worked in Korea myself. For example, that was quite different from China. I’m married to a Japanese woman, so I know a bit about that culture as well. I visit quite often too. And it’s certainly true that, you see, Japan and Korea are more alike.
Jerry Helmers: It’s roughly the difference…
René J.M. Schillings: I was born and brought up in South Limburg. I went to Leeuwarden, in Friesland, to attend hotel management school. So I’ve always said that Friesland was my first experience of living abroad. I had to adapt to life there at the time, too.
Jerry Helmers: Do the Frisians like it when you say that?
René J.M. Schillings: People will understand that my first trip abroad was to Friesland. Back then – and we’re talking about the nineties, the early nineties – from my perspective as a lad from the provinces, and from South Limburg at that, it was a journey all the way to the other side of the country. It took some getting used to. But I did manage to adapt back then.
Jerry Helmers: But in China, of course, that would be just a tiny speck on the map. From Maastricht to Leeuwarden.
René J.M. Schillings: Certainly, but that’s just the way it is. Look, what’s typical in China, for example, is that people from the north are very keen to move south for work and to make a life for themselves. But the reverse isn’t the case, for instance. You do need to be aware of that. In Vietnam, I believe, it’s the other way round. And what you also see, for example, when it comes to big cities versus the countryside – where the resorts are located – is that in every country in Asia there’s a capital city. That’s where most of the top-class hotels are, and also where most of the local talent is. They usually don’t want to go to the outlying areas where those resorts are actually located. Only in Indonesia is it the other way round. There, everyone wants to work in Bali and nobody in Jakarta. Yes, every country is a bit different in that respect, and that’s something we look at too. That’s why I travel quite a lot. I speak to hotel managers on site. And when I hear someone say, ‘I spoke to someone this morning who’s off to work in Vietnam for the first time; he’s worked in China and is now based in Bali’, I send him an email. I say, ‘Welcome to Vietnam.’ I tell him I know the country quite well by now. The north and south are very different. I think I know where you’ll be based. And do give me a call if you need any help. Because I’ve got to know the country a bit by now.’.
[14:54] Lessons for the Netherlands
Jerry Helmers: We’ll certainly be making the connection to the Netherlands, of course. Because we’ve already learnt a great deal about how things work in the Far East – particularly in China. And I think I’ve also picked up a few things that we might be able to learn from the Far East. I’d like to discuss some trends with you in a moment that we’re seeing in the HR sector within the hospitality industry. But first, I’d like to put three statements to you. Well, you didn’t arrange that. Or perhaps you did – I’m not sure. I do have some statements, though. You can then agree or disagree with them. Here’s the first one: HR managers in the hotel sector don’t consider the right criteria when recruiting talented leaders.
René J.M. Schillings: I agree.
Jerry Helmers: The second proposition. The Netherlands is the country where talented hotel staff can best develop their potential.
René J.M. Schillings: I disagree.
Jerry Helmers: I disagree. And here’s a third point. A general manager must be familiar with all types of champagne.
René J.M. Schillings: I disagree.
Jerry Helmers: I disagree. Well. I’d already announced that we’d be moving on to the trends. But I’d still like to take a quick look at what you actually answered in response to these statements.
René J.M. Schillings: That second one took me a moment to think about.
[16:02] Developing talent outside the Netherlands
Jerry Helmers: Yes, you said the second statement was: ‘The Netherlands is the country where talented hotel staff can best develop their potential.’ And you disagree. So do you mean that here in the Netherlands – perhaps the HR managers in the hospitality industry – we’re not facilitating career progression properly?
René J.M. Schillings: No, look, I had to think about that for a moment. I’d say that when it comes to talented hotel staff – and that usually means the people, not those in HR, but the ones who are actually out front, dealing with the guests – so in the kitchen and on the floor.
Jerry Helmers: The receptionists.
René J.M. Schillings: Yes, so the people who shape the guest experience, but also the managers who run the whole show. I’d say: do look at it from that angle too – the Netherlands has a great deal to offer, and it’s also very… It’s a lovely country to work in. But I’d say: do have a look across the border as well. And look, especially if you’re young and need to do an internship, do make a point of exploring somewhere else. You can always come back to the Netherlands. But the world is much bigger than the Netherlands.
Jerry Helmers: But that’s actually a message you’re sending to those young front-office staff. But if you’re thinking from a management perspective…
René J.M. Schillings: Well, look, from a management perspective, I’d say the same thing. But they actually notice that in every country. If people have really only ever worked in one city or one country, they tend to think: ‘Look, this is how we’ve always done things here, and that’s just the way it is.’ But the world is also shaped by global developments. And language is on the rise. So those people who, for example, only know their own region or just their own city, won’t put up a fight when international developments start to affect them too. You can see that in Amsterdam, for instance.
[17:44] International experience and recruitment
Jerry Helmers: But are you saying to a Dutch HR manager who is looking for new staff that they should actually seek out or find people who have a broad range of interests, or who may have gained experience abroad here and there?
René J.M. Schillings: Absolutely, but that does happen too. You also notice, of course, that when you look at who’s serving you on a terrace, they are, in fact, mainly foreign nationals. I like that.
Jerry Helmers: Well, that’s still a matter of debate in the Netherlands, of course. If you’re sitting at an outdoor café in Amsterdam, you can hardly order a Coke or a bitterbal in Dutch anymore.
René J.M. Schillings: I do agree with that. That’s quite right. I understand that too. Fortunately, I do speak a few languages. But I do find it strange that even – and I’m not even talking about Amsterdam or Maastricht, but even in Schinveld or Simpelveld – things have got that far. Yes, it’s already come to that there.
So, yes. No, look, as for the question of whether the Netherlands is the best country to develop your career as a hotel professional in the broadest sense of the word, I’d say, well, look, the Netherlands is a brilliant country, with some great companies too. And if the Netherlands is your home and you’re really happy here, that’s brilliant. But to find out for sure, I’d say: why not try something different? Then you’ll know for certain.
And look, I went abroad once too. Although I did go with the idea of wanting to see the world. I also enjoy being in the Netherlands. Because I’m in the Netherlands now as we, as TOP Hoteliers, are now recruiting for Europe as well. And I do enjoy being back in the Netherlands for certain things, too.
Jerry Helmers: And how lucky are we, then, that you’ve also found the time to join us here on this podcast here in the Netherlands.
René J.M. Schillings: If I’m given the chance to have my say, I’m always happy to do so.
[19:22] HR managers and the right criteria
Jerry Helmers: You’re doing a great job. Just a moment. That first statement: HR managers in the hotel sector don’t consider the right criteria when recruiting talented leaders. That’s what you said earlier. Could you explain that briefly before we move on to the trends?
René J.M. Schillings: It is, of course, a very tricky issue. In principle, as an executive search firm, we’re doing HR work. But I don’t have an HR background myself. I’m from an operations background. And I did realise at the time that the missing link between the realisation that we need people in the industry – and so they must be recruited and also supported in their careers – is, after all, the HR department.
Of course, it’s bound to spark a heated debate when I say that, but that’s exactly why we’re here. Perhaps we do things a little differently from HR after all.
So, what exactly was your argument regarding HR…
I do feel, however, that HR sometimes focuses too much on the box and therefore fails to look beyond its own silo.
You often hear people in all sorts of companies saying that, although it’s all one company, people still work too much in silos.
Jerry Helmers: And you mean in silos, in boxes?
René J.M. Schillings: In silos, yes. You see that in large international companies too. We’re talking about places like a Marriott or a Hilton. On the surface, they’re supposedly one large company with a single vision, a single public face and a single management team. Yet it turns out that, certainly within the HR department too, there really are these silos that people don’t seem willing to step out of.
And that actually highlights – we’ll come to this in a moment – that exodus of people. Why do people give up on that career? Because they realise: ‘Yes, I really enjoy this work and I’m keen to do it, and I’m also moving on with my life.’ But those HR pigeonholes keep holding me back.
[21:10] Staff turnover
Jerry Helmers: Well, as you said yourself, because we’ve already touched on the trends. And you’d already mentioned beforehand that one trend I’d like to highlight is the exodus of staff. And yes, labour shortages. That’s obviously a huge problem in the Netherlands. As a general manager in the hospitality sector in the Netherlands, how do you deal with that?
René J.M. Schillings: Well, let me put it this way: if you’re a hospitality manager and you’re now at a senior level with quite a few years’ experience under your belt, you’re still one of those people who’ve kept that passion alive. And let’s say that back then, everyone who was young and perhaps thought, ‘Right, I’m going into the hospitality industry’ or ‘I’m going to hotel school’, ‘I’m going to learn a trade’, ‘I’m going to be a chef’, ‘I’m going to be a manager’ – whatever it might be. They certainly do have that passion to begin with.
How long do you manage to hold on to that passion?
Jerry Helmers: Yes, but what should you do then as an HR manager? Or as a manager?
René J.M. Schillings: I see that as more of a role for line managers than for HR per se. Of course, it’s certainly important to keep that passion alive.
Speaking of that high drop-out rate. These days, there’s also a lot of marketing. So hotel companies, but also the hotel schools themselves, say: ‘Come and join us, it’s brilliant.’ And if you do join us, you’ll be all set.
As such, they portray nothing but a life of fun and a successful career.
And the reality is, after all, different.
[22:44] Living up to expectations
Jerry Helmers: In practical terms, how can you minimise guest attrition in your own hotel?
René J.M. Schillings: Well, look, ultimately you have to go with the flow – after all, it’s your audience who are the talents you want to hold on to. So you have to cater to those talents. You have to play what that audience wants.
And these days, in this market and in this world, that means you have to be a bit more responsive to what people actually want, so that I can keep them.
Jerry Helmers: Gaining a deeper understanding of what an employee really wants and how you can help them reach their full potential.
René J.M. Schillings: Certainly. And, of course, as a leader or manager, you always have to set out prospects. You have to make promises. So, look, if you do this and that, then you can achieve that. You have to instil that confidence, too.
But then you’ve got to live up to that.
And so what we’re actually seeing is that a lot is promised, but it isn’t delivered. And then people walk away. They say: ‘That’s enough. I’m going to do something else.’.
Jerry Helmers: Do what you say and say what you do.
René J.M. Schillings: And the coronavirus played a huge part in that. People realised at the time that, well, I’m working my fingers to the bone. And what do I get in return?
Yes, there are, after all, some people who have lost their jobs.
We should just do something else.
And if they do something else that was actually quite enjoyable, paid even better and involved even less hard work, then I can understand that.
That people say, ‘Yeah, I’m not going back to the hotel industry.’.
And that’s a shame. That’s a terrible shame.
[24:12] Demographic trends
Jerry Helmers: You mentioned that demographic trends are another factor. Could you say a few words about that?
René J.M. Schillings: Yes. Well, you see, in Europe we’re facing an ageing population. That’s also the case in Japan, for example.
Jerry Helmers: But let’s try focusing on the Netherlands for a moment. Demographic trends? An ageing population?
René J.M. Schillings: Certainly. Well, if we’re talking about the Netherlands, then it’s really a question of generational differences, isn’t it?.
For example, the generation that is now aged 50 and over does have a mindset characterised by flexibility, hard work and doing one’s best, and they also possess a great deal of professional expertise.
That’s actually one of the tips I wanted to give at the end, specifically for the Netherlands.
People are always talking about generational differences, but generational differences have always existed.
Jerry Helmers: But are you saying that older people work harder than younger people? Excuse me? Older people work harder than younger people?
René J.M. Schillings: With greater motivation and enthusiasm.
[25:21] The influence of social media
Jerry Helmers: Right, interesting. You also mentioned to me beforehand that social media is a trend that influences how you run a hotel, both positively and negatively.
René J.M. Schillings: Social media is used to promote things. You want to put yourself in the spotlight.
But what we do see, however, is that when it comes to recruiting people to work for us, I actually see a negative trend.
Whereas all sorts of hotel chains go to great lengths to post attractive photos. And say things like, ‘Come and work for us – it’s brilliant. If you join us, you’ll be all set.’.
And that’s just not happening. See, that’s what cheers people up.
Jerry Helmers: So who isn’t delivering?
René J.M. Schillings: Well, look, the moment you send off your application full of enthusiasm, you just get an automated reply and nothing else.
Jerry Helmers: Oh, that doesn’t feel very welcoming, does it?.
René J.M. Schillings: No. You see, as recruiters, we don’t advertise vacancies on websites either. We discuss every candidate personally, and that’s where we make the difference.
[26:28] Social media and public perception
Jerry Helmers: But what exactly do you mean by the ‘social media trend’? Because social media is something we simply can’t escape. But are those hotels doing things right or wrong? I’m still trying to get to the bottom of that. Keep it brief, then.
René J.M. Schillings: There are two things that social media does. You see, on the one hand, whether your hotel is full or not has to do with the negative effects of social media. If something happens somewhere in the news – say, a bomb has gone off or a government has fallen – people will immediately start thinking: I’d better not go there.
Jerry Helmers: But isn’t that something that’s always been the case? Even back when there was no social media. And you read that there was an ETA attack in Spain in the 1970s. People stopped going to campsites then, too.
René J.M. Schillings: I get the impression that everything is now much faster and more image-driven. All it takes is a single image of a rocket or an explosion, and people immediately think the whole country is ablaze.
Jerry Helmers: I see what you mean now.
René J.M. Schillings: And we’re certainly noticing that. You see, at the moment, as far as hoteliers are concerned, everyone wants to get out of the Middle East. And so I expect that, when it comes to recruiting people for the Middle East, over the next five years most people will say: ‘Well, I’d rather not go there. Because, well, I might get hit by a rocket.’ But that’s not the case.
Jerry Helmers: If you look at the way things are portrayed, I suppose I can’t really blame them, but you’re saying that’s actually a completely false impression.
René J.M. Schillings: Yes, because it’s all so rushed. There’s no depth to it.
Jerry Helmers: So what you’re actually saying is that, as a general manager, you have to realise that social media does have an impact. But you also have to try to rise above it a bit and tell the other side of the story – about what it’s really like in your own environment.
René J.M. Schillings: Always. And that brings us back to recruitment. So recruitment via social media is also too simplistic. It’s just a quick flash of: ‘This is it.’ And people think: ‘Oh wow.’ But the reality is different. Whereas we say, look, if it’s really about finding and retaining talent, you need a bit more depth than just a nice picture.
[28:22] The person behind the CV
Jerry Helmers: Speaking of depth. I’d just like to touch on this briefly with you, because I’m starting to get quite a good idea of how you recruit or how you…
René J.M. Schillings: With passion.
Jerry Helmers: With passion, yes, that’s certainly one thing. But it’s also about how you view people and how you try to match them with your clients. But the people you want to match often have a spouse or partner as well. They need to be involved too. Could you say a few words about that? Because that’s apparently another criterion you consider, or at least discuss with the candidate.
René J.M. Schillings: Certainly. Look, if you’re looking to recruit in the Amsterdam area, it’s already difficult to find anything in Amsterdam itself. But then you do have to consider, well, how do the logistics work in relation to the candidate’s home situation?
It is true that we sometimes have to deal with this – on a global scale, yes – but even within a large country like China, it affects local people too.
Ultimately, the fact is – look – for certain roles we need to fill, we don’t have a shortage of CVs or candidates who are technically capable of doing the job. That’s not the issue anyway.
Ultimately, the deciding factor is – and this sounds like a real cliché – that we are the right person in the right place. But that does mean we’re talking about the person behind that CV.
Jerry Helmers: And does he have a partner?
René J.M. Schillings: They might have a partner, or a parent they still need to look after. They might even have a budgie. Wherever I go, that budgie has to come with me.
Jerry Helmers: But is that a deal-breaker for you? That you’d say, ‘I’m not going to choose you after all.’.
René J.M. Schillings: Well, that’s what I’d advise my client. I’d say, ‘Look, technically speaking, this is the best candidate for you.’ But I do see some snags with this situation. So there’s a good chance you’ll be able to take that person on, because you need them quickly and they’re absolutely brilliant. But I can already see this becoming an issue within the next six to nine months.
In that case, I’d prefer you to take a look at this other candidate. And perhaps their CV isn’t quite as impressive, or it doesn’t quite include everything you’d like to see.
Jerry Helmers: But my personal life is a bit more stable.
René J.M. Schillings: Exactly. Because, you see, stability. Ultimately, we’re in the transport business – getting people from A to B. But, generally speaking, I see the hotel industry as being a little more stable.
[30:28] Three tips for HR managers
Jerry Helmers: We’re almost at the end of this podcast again. I can already tell that I could carry on chatting with you for hours.
René J.M. Schillings: Yes, that’s what we say. I can hear you saying it.
Jerry Helmers: But in a moment you’ll have your sixty seconds of speaking time. You’ll have a brilliant opportunity to promote yourself. Could you very briefly – in under a minute – give three practical tips for every HR manager in the hospitality industry?
René J.M. Schillings: Tip one. Yes, and I’m actually talking about the situation in general. Look, we can of course always say: HR, please, you really need to think outside the box.
Jerry Helmers: From the box, the first tip.
René J.M. Schillings: Yes, but that’s a very general way of putting it. But look, what do we see, for example? HR people do tend, as you say, to bring structure; they like agreements, a level playing field, standardised roles – so you have standardised contracts. That’s true, and it’s part of HR. But you also need to know your audience.
Jerry Helmers: Your audience.
René J.M. Schillings: Yes, your audience. I do make sure to use a few English words now and then, but that’s because I live abroad, of course.
So you could also work for the local council or in a factory. You could also work in the hospitality sector. But who works in the hospitality sector? Who do you attract to the hospitality sector?
These are people who are always flexible. These are people who always go the extra mile. These are also the people we expect not to make a fuss about working an extra hour or coming in at the weekend. So, people who tick all these boxes. That’s just the way they are.
Jerry Helmers: But what exactly is your specific piece of advice?
René J.M. Schillings: You do have to understand that we need to be a bit more flexible. In the current market, you do have to be a bit more flexible to keep those enthusiastic hoteliers on board.
[32:14] The second and third tips
Jerry Helmers: What’s your second tip?
René J.M. Schillings: So you do indeed have to break out of that silo mentality. The standard procedure for HR is: look, we need to recruit people; applications come in, HR reviews them, HR interviews the candidates, and if they’re deemed suitable, they move on to the next stage – the line manager.
I would definitely recommend this, particularly to entrepreneurs, but also to managers. If you’re in a role that’s absolutely crucial – so we’re talking about managerial positions or perhaps a very specific role that’s absolutely vital to your business – then give it a go.
First of all, so as an entrepreneur, director or manager, take a look at the CVs yourself. See who you’re going to interview. And when you come across someone and think, ‘Right, that’s exactly the person I need’, they’ll then go through the HR process.
Jerry Helmers: So, turning that around.
René J.M. Schillings: That’s what we often tell our clients as well. So that such an enthusiastic hotelier isn’t shut down right from the start.
Jerry Helmers: Exactly.
René J.M. Schillings: Because HR is still stuck in that kind of narrow-minded thinking.
Jerry Helmers: That’s a great tip. And one last tip.
René J.M. Schillings: Well, I do see that to some extent in the Netherlands. I hear about it here and there, of course. There are job vacancies, and there are also people who apply for them but don’t even make it through the initial screening. I do notice, though, that it’s mainly people over 50 who sometimes apply for a huge number of jobs. I’ve spoken to friends and others about this from time to time. I see that happening in Asia as well, by the way.
I’d say that when it comes to people with passion, people you can rely on, and people who still have a great deal of knowledge, you certainly shouldn’t underestimate the older generation.
[33:53] The value of experienced staff
Jerry Helmers: I’m one of those boomers – I’m nearly 58. So there’s still hope for me.
René J.M. Schillings: Certainly, but that won’t work if you do indeed have to submit your CV via a website. Because then you’ll be filtered out.
Jerry Helmers: Anyway, the crux of your advice is to have faith in those over-50s too. As staff members, as supervisors, as managers. When you’re recruiting or hiring them.
René J.M. Schillings: Yes, because it’s also about that life experience and, therefore, how you interact with guests. That whole experience, in other words. After all, you’re ultimately running a hospitality business where people come to… Well, to be with a pleasant person. Absolutely. And you’re more likely to find that in people over fifty than in someone aged 23.
[34:33] Open floor
Jerry Helmers: That’s brilliant. We’re moving on to your 60-second speaking slot. Are you ready?
René J.M. Schillings: Twenty years in China – that’s right up my street.
Jerry Helmers: Have you already started your sixty seconds? Shall I give the go-ahead now?
René J.M. Schillings: It’s lovely to be here in Amsterdam. I’m not here on holiday, either. I’ve been telling the story that I was the first to start out in China. Everyone in China knows me. Perhaps there are hoteliers here who have also worked in China. Or in Asia.
But these days we operate worldwide. So we now own land in Amsterdam as well. I always say, quite literally: from Amsterdam to Zanzibar.
And why is that? It’s not because we’ve expanded geographically. On the contrary, we’re actually focusing on developing our operations further.
It is precisely those hoteliers whom we have known for years – who had already had to deal with this situation in Asia back then – who are now based elsewhere. They are now in Europe, the Middle East or elsewhere, and they are facing the same problems.
It’s still very difficult to find the right skilled workers. And that’s why people call us.
So I’m now also really enjoying spending a bit more time in Amsterdam, Barcelona and Berlin, simply to talk mainly to the hoteliers here.
And that’s everyone. When I read the newspaper or watch the news, I see the global problems that the Netherlands is also facing.
[35:58] Conclusion of the conversation
Jerry Helmers: René, you’ve already gone over your speaking time by two seconds.
René J.M. Schillings: I hope you won’t hold it against me. I’ve got a lot to say sometimes.
Jerry Helmers: I didn’t mean to interrupt you. I’ve really enjoyed this conversation anyway, so I’d like to thank you for that.
There’s just one thing I’d still like an answer to. About that statement: a general manager must know all types of champagne. That was one of the statements.
In ten seconds, why does he need to know all the different types of champagne?
René J.M. Schillings: That’s a minor detail. It’s nice to know, but it’s not strictly necessary. At the end of the day, you do have to run a business. You do need to know what’s common practice these days and what people are asking for.
Jerry Helmers: René, did you enjoy this podcast?
René J.M. Schillings: That’s brilliant.
Jerry Helmers: Yes, I really enjoyed having you here. I think – in fact, I’m quite sure – that the listeners, and especially those working in the hotel sector who have HR responsibilities, have gained some really stimulating inspiration from you as an expert.
To be able to draw a rough comparison between China and the Netherlands.
I think you’ve given some really good advice.
So I’d like to thank you so much for coming to the studio.
Or shall we agree to meet up again in the studio in five years’ time? Then we can see whether there have been any developments in the HR profession, or in the field of HR within the catering and hospitality sectors, over those five years that are worth mentioning.
René J.M. Schillings: I’m sure that’s the case. Because when we talk about demographic trends and generational differences, as well as the global economy, the fact is that there’s actually a different trend every five years.
[37:20] Closing remarks
Jerry Helmers: Always. Then that’s a deal.
You’ve just been listening to an episode of Hotelvak, the podcast. We hope this conversation has inspired and stimulated you, and that it has given you some practical tips for your day-to-day work in the industry.
Jerry Helmers hosted the presentation.
The project manager is Daniel Bundel.
Mark Schouten and Daan Halters are responsible for the technical aspects.
Hotelvak, the podcast, is produced by Louwers Mediagroep in Weert.
Do you have any questions about this or any of the other podcasts we produce? If so, please send an email to info@louwersmediagroep.nl or call 0495 45 00 95 during office hours.
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